Imam Ali (peace be upon him): Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Barqi, in a marfu' hadith, said: The Jathaliq (the Catholicos) asked Amir al-Mu'minin (peace be upon him) and said to him: "Tell me about Allah — does He carry the Throne, or does the Throne carry Him?" Amir al-Mu'minin (peace be upon him) said: "Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, is the carrier of the Throne, and of the heavens and the earth and whatever is in them and whatever is between them. This verse expresses that: 'Indeed Allah holds the heavens and the earth lest they deviate from their order, and if they were to deviate, no one could hold them back after Him; indeed He is Forbearing and Forgiving.' (Fatir/41)." He said: "Inform me about the verse: 'And on that day eight angels shall carry the Throne of your Lord above them.' (al-Haqqa/17). How is this possible, while you said that He carries the Throne and the heavens and the earth?" Then Amir al-Mu'minin (peace be upon him) said to him: "Allah created the Throne from four lights: a red light from which redness came into being, a green light from which greenness came into being, a yellow light from which yellowness came into being, and a white light from which whiteness came into being. And that is the very knowledge which Allah placed upon [the shoulders of] the bearers; and it is a light from His greatness. By His greatness and His light, Allah has made the hearts of the believers see, and by His light and greatness the ignorant have risen up in opposition to Him, and by His light and greatness all His creatures in the heavens and the earth — with their varied deeds and the religions that have become confused for them — seek a way and a means toward Him. And whatever Allah carries by His light, greatness and power cannot bring benefit or harm to itself, nor can it bring about death, life or resurrection for itself. So everything in this world is carried, and Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, holds the heavens and the earth lest they perish, and He encompasses them both. He is the source of life and light of every thing, and the Truth (glorified is He) is far above and much higher and loftier than what the wrongdoers say." He said: "Now tell me: where is Allah, the Mighty and Majestic?" Amir al-Mu'minin (peace be upon him) said: "He is here and there, above and below, encompassing us and with us, as this verse says: 'There is no secret conversation among three but that He is the fourth of them, nor among five but that He is the sixth of them, nor less than that [number] nor more, but that He is with them wherever they are.' (al-Mujadala/7). Thus the Kursi encompasses the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them and whatever is beneath the soil; and though you raise your voice, know that He knows the secret and what is hidden, as Allah says: 'His throne [of dominion] encompasses the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both [the heavens and earth] does not weary Him. To Him alone belong loftiness of rank and greatness.' (al-Baqara/255). Those who carry the Throne are the very scholars upon [whose shoulders] Allah has placed His knowledge, and whatever is in the dominion (malakut) of Allah is not outside these four things. That is the malakut which Allah shows to His chosen ones, just as He showed it to Ibrahim, His khalil (friend), and then said: 'And thus did We show Ibrahim the malakut (dominion) of the heavens and the earth [and the absolute sovereignty of Allah over them] [so that he might reason by it, and become of the people of certainty].' (al-An'am/75). And how can the bearers of the Throne carry Allah, when it is by His life that their hearts are alive, and by His light that they find the way to knowing Him?!"